Kwak

You mentioned “sensing, planning and acting” as the technical definition of a robot. Applying these three criteria, it seems like there’s a wide range of things that could be considered robots.

Hong

I’d like to start with what defines a robot. From a technical perspective, it begins with sensing—gathering information from the environment. Humans use their sensory organs, while robots interpret their surroundings by utilizing camera sensors. Next is planning—processing the gathered information to make decisions. Finally, there’s acting—translating decisions into physical actions. This could involve walking, running, manipulating objects, etc. So, is a smartphone a robot, or not?

Kwak

It lacks the action component.

Hong

Smartphones are equipped with various sensors, including not only cameras but also accelerometers that detect and measure motion. They access and process information in files, making decisions based on that data. What about a bomb disposal robot? It moves (acts), it has cameras (senses), but it doesn’t make independent decisions (plan). How about an elevator?

Kwak

It senses weight, makes decisions about direction (going up to the 5th or 10th floor, etc.), and moves. So, an elevator is a robot. This is a refreshingly novel perspective.

Hong

I’d like to add another dimension to the definition of a robot. They perform tasks that are dull, dirty or dangerous (3D jobs), making them a form of assistive technology.

Kwak

Like waste sorting and recycling. Waste from homes and industrial sites isn’t perfectly separated. At recycling plants, people manually sort through the waste on conveyor belts by hand. At incinerators, workers shovel out the burnt residue, enduring extreme heat and hazardous conditions.

Hong

In the future, when reviewing records of our current lives, won’t people be appalled at how we subjected humans to such tasks, deeming them a violation of human dignity?

Kwak

Robots could perform those 3D jobs far more safely and efficiently. However, this would end up displacing workers who depend on such jobs for their livelihoods.

Hong

Jobs will inevitably be lost as robots take over tasks previously performed by humans. This has been a topic of discussion since the Industrial Revolution. But I believe two things will be different in the future. First, the pace of change will accelerate. Second, jobs once considered safe will be susceptible to automation and artificial intelligence. New jobs will emerge as old ones disappear.

Kwak

Are there important and valuable robots or related technologies that haven’t received the attention they deserve?

Hong

More important than technology are ethical considerations. I’m an engineer through and through but it’s impossible to avoid these philosophical considerations. Seeing how robots are having a significant impact on the world, how they’re being used in various fields and becoming major topics of discussion, I hold monthly meetings with my team to share articles and videos and engage in discussions. We’re contemplating the societal impact of our work. There aren’t always solutions, but I believe it’s vital to consider these questions when developing technology.

Kwak

What’s something memorable from a recent discussion?

Hong

Here’s an interesting anecdote. Boston Dynamics released a four-legged robot dog. When a development video of its engine test, which involved kicking the robot, was released on social media, did you see the comments? “Robot abuse.” At UCLA’s Robotics & Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa), we routinely kick robots during technical tests to assess their control and stability. It’s part of the process. So, the term “robot abuse” seemed utterly ludicrous to us engineers. Robots have no feelings; they don’t feel pain. It’s not that it’s inherently ridiculous to feel empathy for robots. The important point is that the discomfort viewers experience is a genuine human emotion. So, seeing the comments and people saying you shouldn’t kick robots made me consider the issue from a different perspective. Here’s a question. Let’s say that someone believes the Earth is flat. They’re afraid of falling off the edge of the Earth, so they’re terrified of sailing. Should we pity them because they experience fear?

Kwak

We should teach them that the Earth is round.

Hong

That’s why education is so important. The emotions of those watching the kicked robot are real, but that doesn’t mean we have to humor their sentiments.

Kwak

Unfettered freedom can lead to the darkest depths of human depravity, and the unrestricted use of robots could exacerbate this. A prohibition against robot abuse wouldn’t be about protecting robots, but about preserving our humanity. We need to teach people that violence, even toward a machine, is unacceptable. We need to draw a line.

Kwak

The film Star Wars was a pivotal inspiration for your career as a roboticist.

Hong

I’ve had a lot of opportunities to show robots developed at RoMeLa to Hollywood directors. While they’ve been impressed with the technology, it hasn’t translated into actual film appearances. That’s because they’re accustomed to the flexibility of CGI, and there are no robotics technologies capable of replicating acting or movement in the same way. When designing real robots, their appearance often differs from those made for film. Real robots must adhere to the laws of physics, ensuring stability and functional movement. A robot with a large head, as often depicted in movies, would wobble when moving, making it unrealistic in practice. However, I see these challenges as exciting opportunities. The announcement isn’t official yet, but I’m currently collaborating with a very famous Hollywood director to develop a “robot for robots.” You’ll be able to see it in theaters very soon.

Kwak

What are some of the most absurd things you’ve encountered in science fiction?

Hong

Time travel that violates the laws of physics, or instantaneous teleportation. Also, machines like the Terminator, or giant robots like MazingerZ and TaekwonV. Building them might not be impossible, but at that scale, they’d be impractical. TaekwonV has a human pilot inside its head. If that robot were to fall, it would be like a skyscraper collapsing, endangering the pilot. But paradoxically, the more outlandish the premise, the more entertaining it becomes. We should enjoy the genre for what it is. I once had a discussion with a renowned AI expert, and someone in the audience asked what would happen if robots developed self-awareness and turned against humans. The panelist’s response was brilliant. He said that worrying about robots harming humans is like worrying about a population problem on Mars. Humans don’t even live on Mars yet.

Kwak

It’s a valid concern for the future, but right now, it’s a waste of time to worry about it.

Hong

We should continue this conversation sometime. Over a glass of soju, perhaps.

• Dennis Hong is the founding director of UCLA’s Robotics & Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa). He has created BRIAN, the world’s first autonomous vehicle for the visually impaired; DARwIn, an open platform humanoid robot; and BALLU, a robot partially made of helium balloons. Kwak Jaesik is a scientist and sci-fi novelist. He is an active commentator, often providing science-focused analysis of current events.